Conversation about items
We are on more decent terms now, so I hope you can try to understand where I'm coming from. I understand that you want your son to have the best of everything and are making an effort to provide that for him. Although I do admire that, I cannot continue to allow it in my home as I do not agree with it. My job is to be the best mother I can be to both of my children and that means keeping things balanced and fair. In this, you do not have to agree - it is not your home, it is mine. And so...I will be sending back most of the things you have gotten for Gabriel and you can set up his room in your house however you see fit. He can have his satin sheets and feather comforters in his room next to yours. He can have 4 gaming consuls and all the games known to man set up in his room or living room at your place...but I will not have it at mine. He will get cotton sheets while living with me because they are good enough. He doesn't need a bed frame and base right now - what he has will suffice until I can get them both bed frames and bases. He does need a dresser and a desk and he will have those because his brother has them as well and that is fair...and he needs them. I have told him that he can choose 2 of the gaming consuls to keep (which is 1 more than his brother has) and the other 2 will be sent back to you. He has selected the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 4. I am open to trading them out if he elects to do that at some point in the future. Below is the consolidated list of items I will be sending back to you and the part you are going to like the least is that since none of the items were cleared with me before shipping them, you are going to bare the cost of shipping them back. Please tell me whether you would like it put on the credit or debit card. This is not being done to be vindictive or mean, it is not being done with jealousy - I am a simple person, I have a simple home. We have what we need and I feel like my home has been invaded and I cannot take it any longer. I don't expect you to be alright with this, but I do hope that can you understand. I have to have a balanced home and I have the right to maintain a balanced home. Just like you have the right to keep your home however you see fit and have whatever you deem necessary for Gabriel at your place.
- 2 gaming consuls (currently selected are the Xbox One and the PlayStation 3)
- 2 duvet's (the heavy and light ones - he has a blanket, a great blanket that he has used every day. It is still the one he uses)
- 1 duvet cover
- 2 sets of satin sheets (not even out of the box yet)
(I have told Gabriel in the interest of being fair, that if you and he were alright giving the older version of the PlayStation (PlayStation 3) to his brother that he could keep the remaining 3. Neither Gabriel nor I believe that you will be ok with that arrangement but I wanted to at least mention it.)
I'm afraid I may have just started us back down the war path.
Due to the length of your message I did not read it in its entirety, but I think I get the gist of it. Its pretty clear that you don't believe I'm spoiling Gabriel, you just don't think its fair that Gabriel gets all these decent things while Sage has to put up with the bits of crap that are passed down to him. So, rather than working harder to provide better things for Sage you'll punish Gabriel by not allowing him the fruits of a parent who has worked hard to provide nice things for him. Seems a little unfair to me.
But if you are going to deprive Gabriel the benefits of a financially successful and fiscally responsible parent, by not allowing him nice things, then I request you send the to Liz's place rather than to Vancouver.
Also, may you please confirm, if I get similar things for Sage then will Gabriel be able to keep the things I got him? I had discussed that with Gabriel yesterday and was going to propose it to you.
Are the clothes I got him included in what you won't let him keep? Am I only supposed to buy him ghetto clothes?
I ask about the clothes because the Docs were $170, the Jordans were $150, the Diesel shirt was $90. To be consistent with the reasoning you provided in your email then these high ticket items must be forbidden as well, right?
And the satin sheets were only $17 each. How can that be considered unfair?
Based on your email, he may only use cotton sheets when he's with you. So, can I get him some decent 650 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets, or is he only allowed to have cheap, crappy sheets?
Please, I'm trying to understand what's allowed in this unique world of yours where people aren't allowed to share their good fortune and with their children.
I request, before shipping anything let me check this with my attorney. If possible I will try to get an injunction against such action on the grounds it unduly punishes the intended beneficiary.
No, you have not started us back down any war path. You have your way parenting and that's fine. Gabriel has chosen that way of life when he chose to stay in your custody so its really not my problem anymore.
As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to fight about at this point.
Okay, I have to admit, I did this this to spite you and for no other reason. I just bought a down comforter for the bartender at the the Steam works. Never met her before. She's kinda cute but I'll never sleep with her (she's not Jewish). She's a total stranger. But I bought her a $289 duvet. Because I can. And I will never make Gabriel wear shoes that are falling apart. Okay, I'm an asshole. But I'm an asshole that puts my son before me:)
Fox
This is Mackenzie. Just met her. She's nothing more than the woman who has been bringing my Merlot.
So tell me, does it trouble you at all that I would spend so much money on a total stranger while not spending money on Sage?
And now I'm at a place called the Lamplighter. Buying drinks for more strangers and tipping Sean, the bartender, $20. And I really have no problem buying things for Sage.
Bummer.
Desiree:
I recently told Gabriel that when he outgrows the clothes I get him, or when he no longer wears them, for whatever reason, he can give them to Sage. However, after reading and considering your email from yesterday, I have decided I'm just not comfortable with the idea of your other child benefiting from my work. So, I shall inform Gabriel that when he no longer wears any item of clothing which I paid for he will return it to me.
Desiree:
Another question occurred to me: how does your recent decision regarding not allowing Gabriel to have the things I've gotten him relate to the money I've been providing him? Is he not allowed to have that either? Are you going to send the credit and debit cards back to me as well? And, if so, how will I pay for the things he needs, like dental appointments?
On the other hand, if he is allowed to keep and spend the money I provide him then how is that any different than letting him keep the duvet and the sheets? Does Sage receive a $50/week allowance as well? Couldn't he just use his allowance to buy new consoles and stuff?
And, moreover, the logic on which you've made your decision is essentially an admission that when the day comes that you seek child support from me, that you absolutely intend to use the child support money you receive from me on Sage.
Do you, maybe, want to rethink this decision and get back to me?
Well that thread of emails was all over the place. You obviously did not understand what I was saying at all. It's not because of the price of any of the items Fox. Of course he can keep the clothes and the shoes, they are a necessity. I am storing to comforters and a duvet cover in a closet that is already full, so I'm sending them back to you. The child does not need 4 gaming consuls. Period. I do not allow Sage to have that, I do not allow Gabriel to have that. I encourage my children to have a life outside of video games. Sage plays computer games and has an Xbox. Gabriel has the playstation and Xbox. That's fair. So the other 2 will be sent back to you. Honestly - Sage would never wear the clothes you bought for Gabriel. The jeans would be too big and unless he's going to a funeral or wedding he'd never wear the button up shirts, so you don't need to worry about that. Sage's style is shoes is also different - he has Filas and Vanz so he won't need Gabriel's left over shoes either. They can be sent back to you once Gabriel outgrows them, I don't care. You have the right to spend your money on whatever you want so why would you think I would be jealous of anything that you buy for anyone else? If you wish to get something for our son that will be kept with me all it ask is that you run it by my first. Otherwise just keep it at your place for him so he'll have it when he's with you. I'm not saying I'm giving the stuff away or selling it, Just that your style an mine are very different and he's not going to have your bedroom in my home. Don't buy him sheets to have while he's with me. He has sheets. Don't buy him comforters and send them to me, he has a blanket. If there is something additional that he needs with me, then he's got a credit card and debit card and allowance, he's quite capable of getting it here. You are so hung up on material possessions and the cost of them. It's not about that. At all.
You're backtracking. Perhaps you should read your original email again. You very clearly stated that Gabriel cannot have those things unless I provide them for Sage as well. It's right there in your email. If I agree to let Sage have Gabriel's PS3 then Gabriel can keep the three other consoles. I don't see the misunderstanding.
I'd also like to point out this is exactly what I said, a few months ago, would happen. I gap is forming between Gabriel and Sage and it's causing conflict in your home. That gap is inevitable because Gabriel is not like you and Sage - he doesn't adhere to your left-wing ideals. He, like me, is capitalist and materialist. He might not realize it yet, but he's been around that way of thinking all his life (until a year ago), and it's very unlikely he is going to start becoming more socialist. By not allowing him to have nice material things unless Sage can also have them (at another person's expense, of course), you've given him his first real taste of what it's like to live in a socialist society. That is an experience I could never give him. Sage has been with you all his life so your way of life is all he knows.
By not allowing him the ownership and the use of such material requisites you're teaching him that ambition and motivation are not good things. You're also teaching him that if he does want to live in comfort, he will have to do it elsewhere, because you won't allow that in your home.
I also want to point out that difference between you and I, again: I want him to be comfortable and have nice things all the time - you only want him to have nice things when he's with you.
And one more thing to point out: when I had no income you kept rubbing that in my face, and bragged about how you could provide all kinds of things for him that I couldn't. You were okay with being materialistic when the situation was reversed. But now you claim those things don't matter to you? Come on!
I am not backtracking. I have been scared to tell you no for fear of the reprocussions. This has given you the wrong impression. Yes, as a mother of 2, I have to keep things fair and I'm done having this inbalance in my home. You want to put all kinds of labels on things, fine. Regardless, the items I specified are going to be sent back to you. You keep his room the way you see fit. You wouldn't allow me to send a bunch of stuff you didn't agree with to your home and demand that you keep it and Gabriel use it just because I say it's better. If Gabriel is so capitalistic then I suppose he will choose to live with you because you have the capitalist viewpoint and the expensive capitalistic things. This is why it didn't work between us to begin with. Please allow me to have my home and you can spoil the shit out of the kid at your place when he's with you. All I'm sending. Back to you are the unnecessary items.
Oh and Gabriel even remembers when you and Liz kept telling me over and over "you can't buy Gabriel's love with all the stuff you're getting for him. Those things won't buy his love!" Who's trying to buy the love now? I could afford to get him some things yes, but I've also gotten Sage expensive electronic items too.
Let me take you back to January 2000 for a moment. We met; in the course of getting to know each other, I said I didn't want to have kids; you said you also didn't want to have kids. In March 2000 you became pregnant. Before you told me you were pregnant you told me the story of the time your father made you have an abortion, and the time you had a miscarriage, and how traumatic those were. A few days later you told me you were pregnant. And you said you wanted to keep the child. You promised you would take care of it and it wouldn't be a burden on me. A few months later you started bleeding and I took you to the UCLA hospital in Carson. The doctors asked you repeatedly if you'd ever been pregnant before - each time you said "no". THAT is what killed our relationship. Not our difference of political or economic views. At that precise moment I realized I would never be able to believe a word you said because you will say anything to get your way. And you will say it so sweetly and seemingly sincerely that anyone will believe you. A few weeks later we got married in Vegas.
Is it coming back to you now?
Sorry to have to bring up the past.
I'm not trying to buy his love (to begin with, I don't believe in such silliness as love). I am buying him things that I believe he has earned (by doing well in school), or that I have promised him previously, or that I believe will make him happy, or that I believe a decent, non-trashy person should have. Notice I am providing them for him to use when he's at home in Arizona, away from me. So that he can enjoy them while he's in YOUR company. Therefore, I am trying to make his life WHILE HE'S WITH YOU, better. Do you see how selfless that is?
If I was trying to buy his love then I would get him things for when he's with me. You may recall, that is what you did. That's why I said you were trying to buy him.
But anyway, we're just talking, right? The useful exchange of information and ideas for the purpose of progress.
It seems to me that what you are really saying is that you want to keep things "fair" for Sage. You're punishing Gabriel by not allowing him to have things he has earned, because Sage doesn't have the same things. And Sage doesn't have those things because HIS parents can't afford them. It's not Gabriel's fault that Sage's father doesn't make enough money to provide those things for him. That is the very definition of socialism - equal distribution of wealth.
As for your belief that I would not allow you to send him all sorts of things and keep them in my home - you are mistaken. I have always taught Gabriel the importance of ownership and if something is his property I would never make him get rid of it. The things you're complaining about are all things he would keep in his room, so I don't see how it's taking over your home.
I didn't get those things for Gabriel because I say they're better. He explicitly wanted them. HE said he wanted satin sheets; HE said he wanted a down comforter; HE chose the pillow. Perhaps he doesn't tell you that he likes those things because you have a tendency to get over emotional, and lose your temper when he expresses views you disagree with.
And your comment about "this is why it didn't work between us...": Actually it didn't work because you say whatever will serve your interests at any moment and I couldn't believe anything you said after a few months. Your current claims of not caring about material things is a perfect example. It's 180 degrees from what you were saying 18 months ago - because now it serves your purposes. You had no problem buying yourself Ralph Lauren shirts when I was paying for them 13 years ago. You swore that you would not pressure Gabriel into anything (before you got in contact with him) and that you'd move at his pace even if it took years - because you thought that's what I wanted to hear. Then the first chance you got you did the complete opposite. You see, that's your style. You say whatever will help you at any moment, who cares if it's true.
Anyway, Gabriel knows I'm moving back to LA this summer. I've got my birth certificate so you can feel free to call DHS all you want.
I'm not spoiling him - I'm teaching him the importance of making decent money. First, decide what you want out of life, then choose a career that will provide that for you. Love does not conquer all and it does not pay for a house on the beach or a German sports car. These are important life lessons that parents should teach their children. Hugs and kisses and saying "I love you" doesn't make everything okay in the world.
You think a house on the beach and a German sports car is what's important in life? Yeah, we have very different views. I'm not punishing Gabriel and it's not because Sage can't 'afford' to have 'nice things.' Both of my children have nice things and they have lots and lots of entertainment items. It is spoiling him and it doesn't teach him anything. You keep throwing things at him and he doesn't have to work for anything or go without anything. There's no character building, there's no social interaction there. Maybe if you had a loving mother to kiss you and hug you and make you feel loved then you would have a different outlook on life. I'm sorry you never had that but our son will. He will make a good mate for a woman someday - unlike you.
You swore that you would not pressure Gabriel into anything (before you got in contact with him) and that you'd move at his pace even if it took years - because you thought that's what I wanted to hear. Then the first chance you got you did the complete opposite. You see, that's your style.
--- Sorry Fox, but you swore to me you would not stop or interfere with any relationship that Gabriel wanted to have with me and then denied a vacation trip that he really wanted to go on because "you could not agree to it", then made Liz and Gabriel so freaked out that she HID Gabriel from me and told me I was not allowed to talk to him or see him...so who lied first? You forced my hand in that situation so don't blame me for it. She had no legal right to have him to begin with.
Whats the name on the birth certificate Fox? Is it Morgan?
Gabriel told me he didn't give a shit about satin sheets - that you were going to get them anyway so he just agreed. Like everything. Like the Ralph Lauren shirts 13 years ago - you won't take "no" for an answer so it's just easier to go along with it and not argue. He's not even using the comforter or sheets. He does like the pillow - he's using that and I won't send it back.
I knew this would end any decency we had. It's back to the same old trash-talking, insulting, debating over things that happened 13 years ago. Sorry you can't handle a difference of opinion like an adult but have to revert to being a cruel, vindictive, mean person again.
I'm trying to teach my children something I believe in. You can view it however you want, but that's the beauty of him having 2 homes, you can handle yours the way you want and I can handle mine the way I want.
In a meeting. Will respond later.
Please see my comments, inline, below:
I think ambition and the relentless pursuit of self-improvement are important, and the desire for nice things leads to such ambition. I think complacency is a deplorable thing. Houses on the beach and German sports cars are just concrete examples of the abstract concepts. I know you have difficulty with abstract thought so I used concrete examples to simplify my point.
You are depriving Gabriel of things to which he has a birthright - being my offspring. That is the very definition of punishment.
I have yet to see any evidence of them having "nice" things. So far all I've seen is crappy, discount store things.
Wrong! I get him things because he does well at his pursuits. It's positive re-enforcement to subconsciously teach him to do his best at whatever he does.
See the above comment.
Again, see above.
Maybe if I had a mother like yours I could have turned out like you? Um, my mother WAS very much like yours, and like you. It is my desire to be better than that that drives me.
The stuff of which you speak is fairy tale nonsense. If you can show ANY evidence that all this love silliness is anything more than a collection of conditioned responses, coupled with the typical person's refusal to question the things they were taught when they were children, then perhaps I'll listen. Let's start with a definition: can you even provide a definition of the word "love" without it resolving to a circular reference? You know what? You can't! It's just silly nonsense that simple people make up so they can think they're superior to animals. And all the love in the world isn't going to pay for Gabriel's education or his surgery so lets come back to reality, shall we?
Whatever. Try to confine your arguments to things that are relevant to the issues at hand. Why do you have to resort to insults and trying to hurt my feelings. Geez. I don't have time for this silliness any more.
By the way, when I call you white trash, I'm not being insulting - it's just the unfortunate truth. Consider: you and your children sleep on partial beds, without a top sheet; you have tattoos (and worse yet, in visible places); you rely on the community for your existence; you wear crappy, cheap clothes; you freak out at little things; you think "supporting" your child just means the day to day expenses; your credit is shot; you use marijuana; you're overly emotional; you're erratic; you're grammar is terrible; you rush into serious committed relationships with losers (including moving in with them); you put your boyfriends before your children; you have terrible table manners...do I really need to go on? Each of these, individually, might not mean a lot, but combined...there isn't a lot of room for debate.
I'm just telling it like it is.
Not convinced?
Coming to LA and taking Gabriel in 2011, and throwing a fit in front of the Sheriffs - trashy.
Maintaining relations with your ex-fiance's friends and family after breaking up with him - very, very trashy. That's just not what civilized people do.
Blaming Gabriel for ruining Sage's birthday when I said he couldn't go to San Diego, yelling at him about it - trashy.
Cancelling Gabriel's mobile phone when he didn't want to visit you - trashy.
Putting a higher priority on toys for Christmas presents, than on basic necessities - incredibly trashy.
Having fights with your husband/boyfriend where you throw things at each other - quite unquestionably trashy.
Really, I can go on all day.
Having multiple pets when you can't even support a comfortable lifestyle for yourself and your children - trashy.
Messy apartment, pet hairs, pet smell - trashy.
Refusing to let one child do well because the other can't, due to the other having a deadbeat father - trashy.
Having multiple kids from multiple men - trashy.
Blaming everybody else for all the problems in your life and never taking responsibility for your actions - trashy!
Taking Gabriel from Liz, by force, with the police, then thinking you could be friends, and inviting her, less than a month later, to stay at your mother's for Gabriel's birthday - come on, even the trashiest person is not THAT clueless!
Being in a pool league that plays at local bars - trashy.
Filing a report with DHS to get custody by default and thinking that your child would ever be able to respect you (he fears you, but he doesn't respect you - there's a difference)...
Not teaching your children to manage their money - very, very trashy.
Believing there is such a thing as an inherent, natural bond between a mother and a child and that the child will just automatically love the parent - naive and trashy.
So, do you still think you're not white trash?
And the most interesting and consistent characteristic of white trash people is that they either don't know they're white trash, or they refuse to realize it. Even if you show them a list of character and personality traits which almost every non-white trash member of our society agrees is typical of white trash, and you show them that they exhibit every single one of those characteristics they still do not accept that they are white trash.
And that it why they will remain white trash - because, in their minds, they are entirely normal and their behavior is completely honorable, dignified and respectable. In case you miss it, I'm drawing a parallel here to you. You keep doing these things that are SOOOO trashy and you think what you're doing is perfectly fine and that it's all the non-trashy people that are screwed up. As long as you keep thinking that way you'll remain white trash. And I don't think you'll ever change because you think the way your are is proper.
So, do you disagree about whether or not you possess any of the characteristics I sent you earlier? Do you finally agree that you're nothing more than a white trash, ghetto, trailer park loser? I'm not saying that to be mean - it's just what, and who, you are. Just like I'm a capitalist, materialistic, selfish, asshole. But I'm okay with that and I accept it.
Here's another typical characteristic: trashy people think it's good to get stuff for "free" from the government (like tuition), not realizing that it's society as a whole (through taxes) that they're taking from.
Trashy people put more importance on big TVs than their kids clothing (how many TV do you have in your home - yet you buy your kids $10 jeans).
Trashy people consider cable (TV) more important than food and clothes for their children. How much do you spend on cable each month? Considering you're claiming to be too broke to even pay for a passport, if you were not trashy you wouldn't have cable.
Well, it seems we have, as always, reached that point in the debate where you realize you are wrong about...well, pretty much everything, and the only response you have left is your usual "I don't have time for these stupid discussions."
Fox
Let me say one thing about backtracking: There is no way anyone could misinterpret the intent of your first message - you weren't even indirect about it. You came right out and said it. You said if I agree to give Gabriel's PlayStation 3 to Sage then you will let Gabriel keep the 3 other consoles. Period! The entire message comes down to that single statement. You are asking me to support Sage. I don't see how there is any other way to interpret that.
I know that Michael recently ditched you guys and hooked up with some loser in Florida and now Sage has no paternal figure around, and you're not the independent type, used to being on your own, so I'm sure things are pretty crazy over there, but let's stop playing word games. It's so much easier when people just speak there minds.
The craziest part of this whole thing is that the day before you sent that message I asked Gabriel if it makes him uncomfortable having all this stuff while Sage is getting nothing. He said yeah, kind of. I told him I would talk to you and maybe work something out. I told him that perhaps you'd be okay with me getting some things for Sage so that he (Gabriel) doesn't feel self-conscious about having nice things.
Anyway, so when I first read the message from you I though maybe Gabriel had said something to you about our conversation (because it was a hell of a coincidence) and you decided to beat me to the punch - out of pride or something.
Funny how things work out sometimes.
By the way, I'm not saying that stuff about Gabriel and Sage to be spiteful. It's just what I believe is the truth.
And I didn't buy that duvet for Mackenzie to make you jealous. I did it to make the point that I will throw away that money on a person I don't even know, before I will let your other child benefit from me or Gabriel.
But since material things are not important to you then none of that matters.
Fox
I was just rereading your message. You say don't buy him sheets for when he's with you because he has sheets, and don't buy comforters because he has a blanket. But, Desiree, the stuff you provide him is crap. The quality is shit. It's like K-Mart and Target stuff. I bought him those things because I know that the stuff on his incomplete bed is crappy ghetto stuff. I've seen pictures of his room, I know what he's sleeping on. He's not even using a top sheet - just the fitted sheet and the blanket. What the hell is that about? Reminds me of my own childhood, sleeping on a mattress and a blanket - no sheets at all. Do you at least provide him a decent pillow? That's rhetorical - I've seen his bed.
Anyway, it's fine if you want to live that way but why do you want to expose your children to that. It's just so ghetto.
And why now are you claiming to be a "simple person"? I gave you substantial notice that I would be providing these things for Gabriel. It's not like I just went ahead and ordered them without telling you. By the way, the proper term would be "simpleton" - and it's not something to be proud of.
But mostly, I can't understand what kind of parent wouldn't want the best for their child. That's just completely unfathomable to me. I think you're probably the only parent that has ever existed that would rather make their child have shitty stuff instead of having good stuff.
What is WRONG with you? If I was unable to provide nice things for my child and you stepped in to make sure that he got the things to be comfortable then I'd be happy for him. I've been sleeping on an air mattress, using a cheap $40 comforter from Walmart until I got Gabriel his proper bedding. Because I'm not going live in comfort while my child is living like a bloody homeless person. I don't get you. There's something wrong with your head or something.
And, yes, I say he's living like a homeless person. Do you know why sheets are sold in sets of 1 fitted sheet, 1 top sheet, and 1 - 2 pillow cases? Because that's how they're meant to be used. You know how the ghetto, trashy people in jail sleep? They put the fitted sheet below them, and use the blanket. They have no idea what that second sheet is for.
You know, there's books on this type of stuff? There's no reason and no excuse for people to be trashy these days.
Ugh, I give up.